tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post45539712716321213..comments2024-01-18T10:54:54.459+00:00Comments on Iain Macwhirter Now and Then: AV is not PR so WTF?iain macwhirterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14486911281896217461noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-82119132564372917112011-04-30T22:30:31.955+01:002011-04-30T22:30:31.955+01:00I too am an advocate for the AMS system, Iain, bec...I too am an advocate for the AMS system, Iain, because I believe it's the furthest you can go towards PR before you dilute utterly the effectiveness of your parliament. There's a balance to be struck between powerful government and representative government, which I believe AMS does really well.<br /><br />In contrast, FPTP produces very strong governments that most people didn't vote for while PR - and to a slightly lesser extent, STV - produces governments everyone voted for but who can't get a majority and rely unstable coalition agreements (at least in some European nations; the unflappable Germans appear to have it mastered).Craig Gallagherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16651039747592264903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-9322813625808509172011-04-30T18:06:49.774+01:002011-04-30T18:06:49.774+01:00Iain
You are right that AV is not PR, which many o...Iain<br />You are right that AV is not PR, which many of us want. But AV is a useful step, albeit a small one. It will rid us of the minority members - more than two-thirds of current MPs. Anyone who wants reform should vote YES in the AV referendum.<br /><br />But you are completely wrong to suggest AMS for electing the Westminster Parliament. Instead of recommending AMS you should be campaigning to get rid of it for Scottish Parliament elections. <br /><br />To see why, take a look at this evidence submitted to the Arbuthnott Commission and Calman Commission:<br />http://www.fairsharevoting.org/Fairshare%20Submission%20Arbuthnott%20Commission%2022%20Mar%2005.pdf<br />and at<br />http://www.commissiononscottishdevolution.org.uk/uploads/2008-12-02-fairshare.pdfJames Gilmourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17374325929212547383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-2067188823775249372011-04-30T16:07:01.720+01:002011-04-30T16:07:01.720+01:00Many interesting points, and despite agreeing with...Many interesting points, and despite agreeing with most of what you say I will be voting 'yes' to AV. I entirely understand that when only one candidate is to be selected, exactly which method you use to do it will have negligible effect on the overall (national) result. But I think we must prevent Cleggeron saying that we were offered electoral reform and declined. <br /><br />I'd only quarrel with you on STV/AMS. The Scottish AMS system means that the majority of our MSPs are people who have never been presented to the electorate - 'list' MSPs are simply party appointees. While proportionality is achieved, and I accept that this has been valuable in lifting Labour's foot from our necks, it is otherwise an ugly and dangerous system. By contrast STV allows voters not only to choose the party, but to choose the candidate, undermining the party machine. We should be very proud of our STV for municipal elections (thanks, Lib Dems). Let's move to make it the system for Holyrood too.Vronskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17797785918817375436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-73228538427066020892011-04-30T15:17:36.897+01:002011-04-30T15:17:36.897+01:00In Australia the variant of AV used to elect membe...In Australia the variant of AV used to elect members of the federal House of Representatives is "compulsory preferential voting", where you have to rank all the candidates on the ballot paper.<br /><br />However for their state elections Queensland and New South Wales use the "optional preferential voting" variant to elect the lower house, where you can rank just one candidate or more as you choose.<br /><br />Under the first variant no ballot papers are taken out of the counting process as "exhausted" and so the winner will end up with at least 50% of the ballot papers in his pile, whether that's taken to be 50% of the total ballot papers or 50% of the ballot papers still in the process when it comes to its conclusion.<br /><br />Under the second variant, which is the one would have here, it will be 50% of the ballot papers still in the process when it comes to its conclusion, which may well mean less than 50% of the total ballot papers at the start of the process.<br /><br />For example in this Irish parliamentary by-election held under AV:<br /><br />http://electionsireland.org/counts.cfm?election=2007B&cons=85&ref<br /><br />the winner had 57% of the ballot papers still in the process at the end, but only 48% of the original total.<br /> <br />If the by-election had been held under FPTP, and if the candidates had received the same number of X's as they got 1's under AV, then the same person would have won but with just 27% of the votes.<br /> <br />However of course that second "if" is a very big "if", because many of the voters would have behaved differently if the election had been held under FPTP.<br /><br />No elector's ballot paper is ever transferred except according to the directions he himself has given through his ranking of the candidates, and if he definitely would not want his ballot paper to end up with a certain candidate then the answer is simply to give that candidate no ranking at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-80705649931259899392011-04-30T14:01:55.414+01:002011-04-30T14:01:55.414+01:00Mr McWhirter you wrote:
""This goes on u...Mr McWhirter you wrote:<br />""This goes on until one candidate emerges with 50% of the vote. This is arguably fairer than the present system where a candidate can win on a minority of the votes cast.""<br /><br />A candidate will only get 50% of the vote or more IF every voter indicates their preferences against each candidate. If a lot of voters just vote for one person then a candidate can end up being elected with less than 50% of the vote. Just like now.<br /><br />I believe it is the case in Australia, which uses AV, that not only is it compulsory to vote it is compulsory to use all your preferences. <br /><br />AS far as I am concerned when I vote for someone I vote for someone and I would not be at all happy with a system where my votes could be taken and given to someone else for whom I would probably NOT vote for even if you threatened me with root-canal treatment without the benefit of an anaesthetic!CWHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-9524949138227180542011-04-30T12:10:35.676+01:002011-04-30T12:10:35.676+01:00"Now that the naive LibDems have been caught ..."Now that the naive LibDems have been caught in the trap"<br /><br />The second best thing that looks as if it will come out of the Holyrood election is the elimination of a number of LibDems, as that party is now a third unionist party, when it was once a second home rule party.<br /><br />What useless negotiators they were with the Tories, and how ludicrous (and self defeating) it was that they refused even to talk to the SNP about a coalition unless the SNP dropped their plan to hold a referendum on independence.<br /><br />So to get power and a few more Westminster seats the LibDems agreed to an AV referendum which no-one wants, but they refused a referendum on Scottish independence which every poll has shown the majority of Scots want.<br /><br />I will hold my nose and vote "Yes" to AV as I see it as slightly better than FPTP most of the time, but the fewer LibDems that are returned to Holyrood the better for Scotland.JPJ2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-31433189745448509582011-04-30T09:56:48.645+01:002011-04-30T09:56:48.645+01:00If you want some form of PR for the House of Commo...If you want some form of PR for the House of Commons, AV+ was the option preferred by the Jenkins Commission: <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Vote_Plus_(AV%2B)<br /><br />It would be far easier to move from AV to AV+ than from FPTP to AV+.<br /><br />In fact if we vote to keep FPTP then that'll certainly be used as a powerful argument against any change and we'll be stuck with FPTP for at least a generation.<br /><br />Examples in other countries show that once the first step has been taken to change a long-established electoral system then subsequent steps become easier.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-22507649996650424172011-04-30T08:45:02.850+01:002011-04-30T08:45:02.850+01:00The Scottish system also allows three parties to d...The Scottish system also allows three parties to dominate one other or to put it another way, and why it was so set up, to perpetuate a permanent Lab-Lib administration until the unexpected happened in 2007.<br /><br />The really really unbelievable might well happen in a few days time and that excluded minority party could just take the majority of seats.<br /><br />I suppose it depends on the postal votes and who fills them in.<br /><br />We live in interesting times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-40809314800556952322011-04-29T22:20:17.163+01:002011-04-29T22:20:17.163+01:00We risked a thousand pound fine if we refused to f...We risked a thousand pound fine if we refused to fill in the recent census form.<br /><br />It should be the same for those who don't exercise the hard won right, by a previous generation, to vote in general elections.<br /><br />The AV is a small step - but even a small step, if it is thr right direction is worth taking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-75931940562302067352011-04-29T21:21:03.632+01:002011-04-29T21:21:03.632+01:00While I do agree that PR is a much more worthwhile...While I do agree that PR is a much more worthwhile reform, having each individual better reflect the wishes of the voters in the constituency is also a positive move, as it removes the likelihood of vote-splits and makes tactical voting largely redundant (and practically very difficult).<br /><br />Is AV an ideal system? No.<br />Is it better than what we have now? Most certainly.<br /><br />And given that you've spent a number of words praising the current Scottish Parliament (government and other parties alike) for negotiating and coming to workable consensus, a system that's a compromise is perhaps no bad thing.<br /><br />Incidentally, anyone supporting *any* electoral system because it gives any given party a greater or lesser chance of winning seats is surely missing the point, as it'll be only a short-term change.Martinhttp://polemic.easyweb.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-57779653399604091102011-04-29T20:29:59.031+01:002011-04-29T20:29:59.031+01:00'seducing the LIberal Democrats' who were ...'seducing the LIberal Democrats' who were very willing in the seduction<br />all fur coat and no nickers.<br /><br /><br />'I feel genuinely angry about this'<br /><br />Hmm! Iain exactly when did you express some fake anger?????Nikostratoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06581441869560921339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-18312739370705248152011-04-29T20:15:17.043+01:002011-04-29T20:15:17.043+01:00Iain can you now understand now why so many of us ...Iain can you now understand now why so many of us have given up on the Westminster system and want Scotland to be Independent againNConwayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03221619304790182655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-50431711480518092622011-04-29T19:45:15.883+01:002011-04-29T19:45:15.883+01:00Iain
one of your very best pieces, summing up the...Iain<br /><br />one of your very best pieces, summing up the feelings of many frustrated citizens. <br /><br />More reflective and sensible than anything I have yet seen in the press.Clamjamfriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13931804405810196774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22403989.post-13383973259596582682011-04-29T19:39:31.153+01:002011-04-29T19:39:31.153+01:00Just write INDEPENDENCE on the slip Iain as Westmi...Just write INDEPENDENCE on the slip Iain as Westminster will never shift unless it is kicked where it hurts. It's looking increasingly shaky for Tavish next week with a Fox rounding up his flock.cynicalHighlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06034325908473006163noreply@blogger.com